This is the Tenth post from Chapter 4 of Friends With God: Living The Life Of Jesus In Us. Throughout this chapter and the previous chapter we have been exploring the false doctrine of the “Penalty For Sin”, ” invented by Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th Century A.D.
Hi Martin, this is a very important distinction. I don’t know how to bring it up with my husband. He’s been Christian a lot longer than me, and will surely argue for the “sin penalty”.
I did read your last post also, and found it to be very illuminating.
I guess I can ask him to look at Anselm of Canterbury with me. (I haven’t looked at this yet). And Isaiah 53. Thanks for your work!
I have been working on it for many years and it took me a long time to grasp what I was actually reading, rather than reading what I wanted to interpret from the verses!
Have fun reading the rest of the posts on this subject also, they cover a lot of area, but ultimately you will have to come to your own determination, guided by God's Sprit. I am sure you could enlighten me on some aspect of it too.
As a young Christian, (about 2 1/2 years), I read the amplified Bible, as it helps me to understand scripture. But now I fear it’s teaching me incorrectly.
My family has tried to find a “good” Christian church, but CRC churches have let us down in various ways (one using Brit-Israel). We live in the “sticks”, and can only travel so far.
But my point is, the few churches and people we have spoken with hold fast to “Christ died for our sins”.
I looked up Anselm of Canterbury, and have read where he comes up with the idea of the human God, dying to redeem us. “Why Did God Become Man?”.
Now I wonder what else may have been added to or taken away from the Bible? I know about the Book of Enoch, for example.
Your posts about this are incredibly important. But if Christ didn’t die for our sins, this implies we must take further responsibility ourselves, for our sins. Of course, don’t keep sinning!
I don’t know about me enlightening you about Christianity, you’re waaay ahead of me there!
I’m going to have to look at the New Testament references you’ve provided, also.
Have you seen Bullinger's Companion Bible? Not perfect but has some interesting and detailed commentary. Very tiny print however, unless you get the large version- which will need a strong table to hold it!
We also like ESword for the computer, as it has KJV+ which has all of the words with the Strong's Concordance references.
The terminology of the "penalty for sin" jargon is difficult to untangle from the pure word of God, so that we can get confused with words, such as "Christ died for our sins".
As you said "But if Christ didn’t die for our sins, this implies we must take further responsibility ourselves, for our sins. Of course, don’t keep sinning!" Yes indeed, but Christ did die for our sins- to show us how to overcome them by following him, and asking him for the strength and wisdom and courage and patience to overcome them.
It is a lifetime job to understand God's Word, that is why we have 70+ years to figure it out- but God will only judge us on what we know, and how we respond to that. So don't fret about how much you know or don't know, be calm and patient and be sure you test everything that you read.
It can be very difficult to discuss this subject with anyone because of the "Penalty For Sin" jargon is so mixed up in with the word of God. Yet most of it is simply taken out of context of what is being said. That is why I have taken so much space to write about it, and hopefully make it somewhat clear.
My favourite proverb on how to discuss this subject is:
He who has knowledge says little: and he who has a calm spirit is a man of good sense. Even the foolish man, when he keeps quiet, is taken to be wise: when his lips are shut he is credited with good sense. (Pro 17:27-28)
Be calm and think before you speak!
Yes, we don't agree with the Brit Israel thing either, way too much speculation and totally unnecessary to any understanding of God's Word.
Great, thanks very much for that sound advice Martin. I haven’t seen the Bullinger’s companion Bible, but my eyesight’s not great, so I’ll give that a miss for now!
I can look up ESword and Strong’s Concordance ref’s.
I’m not very good at being calm, but I can be patient. Test everything you read is good advice-I’m not sure I know how to test what I read, but I will pray for guidance!
The proverb you mention also sounds good-be calm and think before you speak is good advice for any situation. My trouble is that everyone wants to jump in and say something, possibly without thinking, and by the time I get a chance to say something, I’ve forgotten what I really wanted to say! I really have a bad memory!
With Brit Israel, the pastor was trying to say it was necessary to keep someone from the line of David on the throne. Even as an almost new Christian, I just couldn’t believe what I was hearing! It is a husband and wife team, and the husband said he was brought up with Brit Israel. They said they were going to speak to us about Charles III coronation, and I really didn’t know exactly how that could fit in with Christianity, given what I know about the British Royal family (and other royal families).
I told them what I thought of the British Royals, and they were trying to convince me that the royal family had some problems ‼️ but that didn’t matter.
They gave me a little book called “World Destiny-God’s Master Plan” by Dudley Cooper, who started the first suburban CRC in Adelaide. It has a “family tree” of sorts, starting with twin sons Zarah and Pharez of Judah, but the family tree is an extreme mess, doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not even typed up legibly, it appears to be typed on an old typewriter and just printed as such in the book. Not very professsional, and extremely confusing!
Well, thanks for your encouragement, and answering my questions. I’ll keep reading and get back to you when I need to.
Excellent ongoing presentation on the atonement that you make easily accessible and able to be understood with clarity. Thank you Martin for peeling away common atonement misperceptions, we must allow ourselves to be honest asking the ultimate question of; "How does the death and life of Jesus save us?" with that tied in with the majesty that only Jesus can offer.
It won't show the "enu" because in the Hebrew those letters are attached to the word. In other words, in English it will be two words, "our griefs", but in Hebrew the "our" is actually part of the word.
I use Blue Letter Bible (online.) You bring up the verse and click on Tools.
Then click on the verse that has the word in question, and it will bring up an interlinear view for each word in that verse. I can tell right away because I can read the Hebrew.
Thanks for this comment, it is important and worth clarifying.
Which Bible version in the Blue Letter Bible are you looking at?
Is it the Hebrew Names Version? That is the only one that I can see there.
I think this is a translation, not a transliteration of the Hebrew words, but I need to look into it.
I think this is basically for Hebrew speakers to read the Bible in modern Hebrew, as ancient Hebrew which it was originally written is apparently very different.
Much in the bible and in certain religions is misunderstood, but people still like to think that they have it right and won't open their minds and hearts to learn the truth. Still people think that Catholics can sin, go to confession and feel free to sin again. That isn't how it is. People like to say bad things about the Muslim religion that aren't true. Same with Jews. This is why we should think before we speak, especially in situations where we are teaching kids about God. Also we should explore topics (especially the contentious ones) before speaking about them.
At the moment, I am struggling with the history of Jesus' time on earth. With all the different Christian churches and varying beliefs out there, as well as versions of the bible that differ, unless we know the history of the times, places, traditions and the nuances of the languages spoken when Jesus was born, lived and died, it can be troubling to find like-minded believers in a given denomination. Sometimes men who held high places in churches were not interested in sowing mustard seeds of faith but rather they only wanted physical perks that came with the "job".
Long story short, I appreciate your essays and am grateful to those who comment and then your replies which ARE mustard seeds planted with humility and honesty. It's refreshing. I also appreciate Alexander Semenyuk's essays and books. I will look for your physical book when it's out. I like paper !! :)
Jesus told us that it was not going to be easy, and the first thing he said when asked about the end times, (which certainly seems like we are in (but we could be wrong even on this assumption!!) ) is that we should be careful not to be deceived:
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draws near: go ye not therefore after them. (Luk 21:8)
God expects us to be wise in the face of dire trouble:
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (Mat 10:16)
It is not an easy calling, but it is the calling to gain eternal life, which can't be granted any other way!
Hang in there Jenni, for if God is with who of any significance is against us?:
Let not mercy and truth forsake you: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Hi Martin, this is a very important distinction. I don’t know how to bring it up with my husband. He’s been Christian a lot longer than me, and will surely argue for the “sin penalty”.
I did read your last post also, and found it to be very illuminating.
I guess I can ask him to look at Anselm of Canterbury with me. (I haven’t looked at this yet). And Isaiah 53. Thanks for your work!
There is no rush, just take your time.
Ask God to guide you.
Tell me if I am wrong, I am happy to discuss it.
I have been working on it for many years and it took me a long time to grasp what I was actually reading, rather than reading what I wanted to interpret from the verses!
Have fun reading the rest of the posts on this subject also, they cover a lot of area, but ultimately you will have to come to your own determination, guided by God's Sprit. I am sure you could enlighten me on some aspect of it too.
As a young Christian, (about 2 1/2 years), I read the amplified Bible, as it helps me to understand scripture. But now I fear it’s teaching me incorrectly.
My family has tried to find a “good” Christian church, but CRC churches have let us down in various ways (one using Brit-Israel). We live in the “sticks”, and can only travel so far.
But my point is, the few churches and people we have spoken with hold fast to “Christ died for our sins”.
I looked up Anselm of Canterbury, and have read where he comes up with the idea of the human God, dying to redeem us. “Why Did God Become Man?”.
Now I wonder what else may have been added to or taken away from the Bible? I know about the Book of Enoch, for example.
Your posts about this are incredibly important. But if Christ didn’t die for our sins, this implies we must take further responsibility ourselves, for our sins. Of course, don’t keep sinning!
I don’t know about me enlightening you about Christianity, you’re waaay ahead of me there!
I’m going to have to look at the New Testament references you’ve provided, also.
Thank you Martin.
Great stuff RR, hang in there!
Have you seen Bullinger's Companion Bible? Not perfect but has some interesting and detailed commentary. Very tiny print however, unless you get the large version- which will need a strong table to hold it!
We also like ESword for the computer, as it has KJV+ which has all of the words with the Strong's Concordance references.
The terminology of the "penalty for sin" jargon is difficult to untangle from the pure word of God, so that we can get confused with words, such as "Christ died for our sins".
As you said "But if Christ didn’t die for our sins, this implies we must take further responsibility ourselves, for our sins. Of course, don’t keep sinning!" Yes indeed, but Christ did die for our sins- to show us how to overcome them by following him, and asking him for the strength and wisdom and courage and patience to overcome them.
It is a lifetime job to understand God's Word, that is why we have 70+ years to figure it out- but God will only judge us on what we know, and how we respond to that. So don't fret about how much you know or don't know, be calm and patient and be sure you test everything that you read.
It can be very difficult to discuss this subject with anyone because of the "Penalty For Sin" jargon is so mixed up in with the word of God. Yet most of it is simply taken out of context of what is being said. That is why I have taken so much space to write about it, and hopefully make it somewhat clear.
My favourite proverb on how to discuss this subject is:
He who has knowledge says little: and he who has a calm spirit is a man of good sense. Even the foolish man, when he keeps quiet, is taken to be wise: when his lips are shut he is credited with good sense. (Pro 17:27-28)
Be calm and think before you speak!
Yes, we don't agree with the Brit Israel thing either, way too much speculation and totally unnecessary to any understanding of God's Word.
Cheers for now.
Great, thanks very much for that sound advice Martin. I haven’t seen the Bullinger’s companion Bible, but my eyesight’s not great, so I’ll give that a miss for now!
I can look up ESword and Strong’s Concordance ref’s.
I’m not very good at being calm, but I can be patient. Test everything you read is good advice-I’m not sure I know how to test what I read, but I will pray for guidance!
The proverb you mention also sounds good-be calm and think before you speak is good advice for any situation. My trouble is that everyone wants to jump in and say something, possibly without thinking, and by the time I get a chance to say something, I’ve forgotten what I really wanted to say! I really have a bad memory!
With Brit Israel, the pastor was trying to say it was necessary to keep someone from the line of David on the throne. Even as an almost new Christian, I just couldn’t believe what I was hearing! It is a husband and wife team, and the husband said he was brought up with Brit Israel. They said they were going to speak to us about Charles III coronation, and I really didn’t know exactly how that could fit in with Christianity, given what I know about the British Royal family (and other royal families).
I told them what I thought of the British Royals, and they were trying to convince me that the royal family had some problems ‼️ but that didn’t matter.
They gave me a little book called “World Destiny-God’s Master Plan” by Dudley Cooper, who started the first suburban CRC in Adelaide. It has a “family tree” of sorts, starting with twin sons Zarah and Pharez of Judah, but the family tree is an extreme mess, doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not even typed up legibly, it appears to be typed on an old typewriter and just printed as such in the book. Not very professsional, and extremely confusing!
Well, thanks for your encouragement, and answering my questions. I’ll keep reading and get back to you when I need to.
Thanks for being here, so patiently, Martin.
Excellent ongoing presentation on the atonement that you make easily accessible and able to be understood with clarity. Thank you Martin for peeling away common atonement misperceptions, we must allow ourselves to be honest asking the ultimate question of; "How does the death and life of Jesus save us?" with that tied in with the majesty that only Jesus can offer.
Spot on again Hephzibah!
There is so much to peal away, as so much as been misrepresented and distorted.
We must use God's Word honestly and humbly, not as a tool to threaten others with or to manipulate control of people.
thanks for reading and commenting and encouraging me, greatly appreciated.
Actually the word "our" IS in the text. I'm a Hebrew speaker. The Hebrew "enu" on each of those words is "our."
Thanks for this feedback, and for reading the post.
I certainly don't speak Hebrew, and my limited understanding comes from Strong's Concordance, which does not show "enu" on any of those words.
What text are you reading where it has "enu" as in the original Hebrew? Or are you reading a modern Hebrew translation?
It won't show the "enu" because in the Hebrew those letters are attached to the word. In other words, in English it will be two words, "our griefs", but in Hebrew the "our" is actually part of the word.
I use Blue Letter Bible (online.) You bring up the verse and click on Tools.
Then click on the verse that has the word in question, and it will bring up an interlinear view for each word in that verse. I can tell right away because I can read the Hebrew.
Thanks for this comment, it is important and worth clarifying.
Which Bible version in the Blue Letter Bible are you looking at?
Is it the Hebrew Names Version? That is the only one that I can see there.
I think this is a translation, not a transliteration of the Hebrew words, but I need to look into it.
I think this is basically for Hebrew speakers to read the Bible in modern Hebrew, as ancient Hebrew which it was originally written is apparently very different.
Much in the bible and in certain religions is misunderstood, but people still like to think that they have it right and won't open their minds and hearts to learn the truth. Still people think that Catholics can sin, go to confession and feel free to sin again. That isn't how it is. People like to say bad things about the Muslim religion that aren't true. Same with Jews. This is why we should think before we speak, especially in situations where we are teaching kids about God. Also we should explore topics (especially the contentious ones) before speaking about them.
At the moment, I am struggling with the history of Jesus' time on earth. With all the different Christian churches and varying beliefs out there, as well as versions of the bible that differ, unless we know the history of the times, places, traditions and the nuances of the languages spoken when Jesus was born, lived and died, it can be troubling to find like-minded believers in a given denomination. Sometimes men who held high places in churches were not interested in sowing mustard seeds of faith but rather they only wanted physical perks that came with the "job".
Long story short, I appreciate your essays and am grateful to those who comment and then your replies which ARE mustard seeds planted with humility and honesty. It's refreshing. I also appreciate Alexander Semenyuk's essays and books. I will look for your physical book when it's out. I like paper !! :)
Thanks Jenni, I love a paper copy too!!
Jesus told us that it was not going to be easy, and the first thing he said when asked about the end times, (which certainly seems like we are in (but we could be wrong even on this assumption!!) ) is that we should be careful not to be deceived:
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draws near: go ye not therefore after them. (Luk 21:8)
See also these few scriptures-
Mat_24:4-5, Mat_24:11, Mat_24:23-25; Mar_13:5-6, Mar_13:21-23; 2Co_11:13-15; Eph_5:6; 2Th_2:3, 2Th_2:9-11; 2Ti_3:13; 1Jn_4:1; 2Jn_1:7; Rev_12:9
God expects us to be wise in the face of dire trouble:
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (Mat 10:16)
It is not an easy calling, but it is the calling to gain eternal life, which can't be granted any other way!
Hang in there Jenni, for if God is with who of any significance is against us?:
Let not mercy and truth forsake you: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
(Pro 3:3-6)
Well, I'm not giving up!