Not a lot... other than normal Bible study. I do agree with John MacArthur's viewpoint on the subject. Hope that helps... will be happy to comment on your posts.
Penal substitution as taught today is relatively new, & came from the reformers, particularly John Calvin and is ultimately a theory, and it's ok to think upon these things, it's problematic when others get very offended and call out other brothers and sisters who don't hold to this view as heretics or not true believers and are so dogmatic and hateful, condemning those who hold a different view, on either side, & not divide against each other nor fight about such things. There are possible other biblical views. The atonement focuses on Jesus Christ's victory over the enemy satan the devil. I do not deny that Jesus as the sacrificial lamb died and we are saved by His precious poured out blood & as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that Heavenly Father vented his wrath against sin upon Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.
All these things give us glimpses into gaining some sort of understanding. Let's always be charitable towards those who think differently as long as they are not deviating from the true teachings & doctrines of our Lord Jesus Christ. Dogmatic Theology is ultimately not a premise for salvation. Even if we don't understand everything or have different views on matters than the views held by the majority,that are not deviating from God's truths doesn't negate us living & dying for Jesus Christ being faithful unto death.
It is a complex subject and takes a lot of thinking through.
I certainly don't have it all sorted by any means but I think we need to seriously consider this idea and its unbiblical foundations.
Totally agree with what you say, and if I have been offensive in any way please spell it out with reference to what I have said.
I will continue to confront this unbiblical idea of a "penalty for sin that Christ had to pay" in future articles as it is a major change from the simplicity of Christ's example that we are to follow and undermines the real reasons for his death.
It is like so many add-ons to scripture, they start out being an interesting idea and them become taught as if they are true, manipulating scripture to fit these ideas.
You haven't been offensive at all. I was simply staring that others may be offended and not display the character of the fruits of the spirit in their responses, that has been known to happen on occasions sadly! 🥴
Yes, sadly this topic has certainly offended many people I have mentioned it to, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
It could also mean I have not been gentle enough, perhaps, and we all need to be kind and courteous to each other.
Please H, if you ever notice that I am not gentle or kind, please tell me clearly what I have said as it is easy to get enthusiastic about the truth and ignore the sensibilities of those that are weak in the faith, or have deep seated beliefs and may take a long time to realize that what they believe are doctrines of men but not of God.
I am very willing to examine any scripture I have claimed means something and others claim it means something else, I would hate to be misrepresenting the word of God.
Ultimately we are not saved through dogmatic Theology. That is not what save us. We are not to have divisions because of certain theological differences or because of differences regarding interpretation as long as we are not deviating from the true gospel, doctrines & teachings of Jesus Christ, & sharing the sum of all truths of our Lord Jesus Christ, speaking them in love, but not bickering or hating another because they want to stubbornly hold on to something, as it unerves them and makes them feel vulnerable & indeed being sensitive to that fact, as long as we are Holy spirit infilled & Jesus Christ indwelt not living in wilful habitual perpetual sinning, God examines our hearts and conduct and our fruits & if we love Him through loving Him keeping, obeying & doing His commandments, through His empowering enabling spirit given to us. Finally, then, brothers,we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 1 Thessalonians 4:1
2 Timothy 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Matthew 21:33-46 The parable of the vineyard is helpful in understanding that Jesus Christ's suffering was accomplishing his fathers will & to please Him, but didn't somehow satisfy Gods justice not somehow placate Gods anger or wrath, He didn't receive any sort of innate delight or inherent pleasure from seeing His son murdered, if anything we see it stirred up His wrath & will destroy those wicked men miserabley and we see that in the destruction of Jerusalem! Yes, God was pleased that Jesus willingly laid down his life to be the sacrificial lamb that takes away the sins of the world, but Heavenly father didn't gain some sort of twisted enjoyment seeing His beloved son as the word and God made flesh tortured murdered and crucified.
Exactly, the time will come when Jesus will return and will destroy the wicked people who desire to kill Jesus and his followers even now, and will fight him when he returns.
Pentecost Sunday !May the Power of the Holy Spirit live in us all. 🙏
Thanks Brandon
Have you thought about the "penalty for sin" doctrine much?
The next few posts will cover this idea in great detail, so would be interesting to get some detailed comments on it.
Yes I have , our path is narrow Martin .
Well done as always!
Thanks Jim, appreciate your encouragement.
Have you thought about the "penalty for sin" doctrine much?
The next few posts will cover this idea in great detail, so would be interesting to get some detailed comments on it.
Not a lot... other than normal Bible study. I do agree with John MacArthur's viewpoint on the subject. Hope that helps... will be happy to comment on your posts.
Thanks Jim
would you mind giving me a link to John MacArthur's comments on it??
It's in a book I have. I will scan the pages (3 or 4) and send them as a pdf.
I would really appreciate that.
Not many people know that the "penalty for sin" idea was developed in the 11th Century, so I hope he addresses that issue.
Are you referring to Thomas Aquinas? I'll check.
Penal substitution as taught today is relatively new, & came from the reformers, particularly John Calvin and is ultimately a theory, and it's ok to think upon these things, it's problematic when others get very offended and call out other brothers and sisters who don't hold to this view as heretics or not true believers and are so dogmatic and hateful, condemning those who hold a different view, on either side, & not divide against each other nor fight about such things. There are possible other biblical views. The atonement focuses on Jesus Christ's victory over the enemy satan the devil. I do not deny that Jesus as the sacrificial lamb died and we are saved by His precious poured out blood & as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that Heavenly Father vented his wrath against sin upon Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.
All these things give us glimpses into gaining some sort of understanding. Let's always be charitable towards those who think differently as long as they are not deviating from the true teachings & doctrines of our Lord Jesus Christ. Dogmatic Theology is ultimately not a premise for salvation. Even if we don't understand everything or have different views on matters than the views held by the majority,that are not deviating from God's truths doesn't negate us living & dying for Jesus Christ being faithful unto death.
Thanks H for your considered response
It is a complex subject and takes a lot of thinking through.
I certainly don't have it all sorted by any means but I think we need to seriously consider this idea and its unbiblical foundations.
Totally agree with what you say, and if I have been offensive in any way please spell it out with reference to what I have said.
I will continue to confront this unbiblical idea of a "penalty for sin that Christ had to pay" in future articles as it is a major change from the simplicity of Christ's example that we are to follow and undermines the real reasons for his death.
It is like so many add-ons to scripture, they start out being an interesting idea and them become taught as if they are true, manipulating scripture to fit these ideas.
You haven't been offensive at all. I was simply staring that others may be offended and not display the character of the fruits of the spirit in their responses, that has been known to happen on occasions sadly! 🥴
Yes, sadly this topic has certainly offended many people I have mentioned it to, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
It could also mean I have not been gentle enough, perhaps, and we all need to be kind and courteous to each other.
Please H, if you ever notice that I am not gentle or kind, please tell me clearly what I have said as it is easy to get enthusiastic about the truth and ignore the sensibilities of those that are weak in the faith, or have deep seated beliefs and may take a long time to realize that what they believe are doctrines of men but not of God.
I am very willing to examine any scripture I have claimed means something and others claim it means something else, I would hate to be misrepresenting the word of God.
Of course. As I please ask the same of you to do for me. Thank you!
Ultimately we are not saved through dogmatic Theology. That is not what save us. We are not to have divisions because of certain theological differences or because of differences regarding interpretation as long as we are not deviating from the true gospel, doctrines & teachings of Jesus Christ, & sharing the sum of all truths of our Lord Jesus Christ, speaking them in love, but not bickering or hating another because they want to stubbornly hold on to something, as it unerves them and makes them feel vulnerable & indeed being sensitive to that fact, as long as we are Holy spirit infilled & Jesus Christ indwelt not living in wilful habitual perpetual sinning, God examines our hearts and conduct and our fruits & if we love Him through loving Him keeping, obeying & doing His commandments, through His empowering enabling spirit given to us. Finally, then, brothers,we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 1 Thessalonians 4:1
2 Timothy 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
yes, spot on
Matthew 21:33-46 The parable of the vineyard is helpful in understanding that Jesus Christ's suffering was accomplishing his fathers will & to please Him, but didn't somehow satisfy Gods justice not somehow placate Gods anger or wrath, He didn't receive any sort of innate delight or inherent pleasure from seeing His son murdered, if anything we see it stirred up His wrath & will destroy those wicked men miserabley and we see that in the destruction of Jerusalem! Yes, God was pleased that Jesus willingly laid down his life to be the sacrificial lamb that takes away the sins of the world, but Heavenly father didn't gain some sort of twisted enjoyment seeing His beloved son as the word and God made flesh tortured murdered and crucified.
Exactly, the time will come when Jesus will return and will destroy the wicked people who desire to kill Jesus and his followers even now, and will fight him when he returns.